Comments on: Ferry failing, nobody notices http://futureoaklandblog.com/2009/12/ferry-failing-nobody-notices/ Decisions today shape the city tomorrow. Thu, 01 Jul 2010 22:28:28 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Joaquin http://futureoaklandblog.com/2009/12/ferry-failing-nobody-notices/#comment-1149 Joaquin Tue, 26 Jan 2010 22:41:43 +0000 http://futureoaklandblog.com/?p=567#comment-1149 The ferry is a much better comute than driving or BART.....20 minutes you are there and the people you meet along the way become friends. How many people have you met on Bart who invites you to their house at Cristmas or you buy something for their birthday. I know about my friends grandbaby...I went to happy hour with some friends from the ferry the day before her husband died and met him...I know if need something someone on the ferry is there for me. The bigest proplem with Oakand commuters are they don't know about it...If you have flexible hours the ferry is the best commute in the Bay Area. The ferry is a much better comute than driving or BART…..20 minutes you are there and the people you meet along the way become friends. How many people have you met on Bart who invites you to their house at Cristmas or you buy something for their birthday. I know about my friends grandbaby…I went to happy hour with some friends from the ferry the day before her husband died and met him…I know if need something someone on the ferry is there for me. The bigest proplem with Oakand commuters are they don’t know about it…If you have flexible hours the ferry is the best commute in the Bay Area.

]]> By: Zach Seal http://futureoaklandblog.com/2009/12/ferry-failing-nobody-notices/#comment-1102 Zach Seal Thu, 31 Dec 2009 01:35:24 +0000 http://futureoaklandblog.com/?p=567#comment-1102 V – The Broadway Shuttle will stop at the intersection of Embarcadero & Broadway, an easy and very short walk from the ferry station at Clay Street. A wayfinding sign(s) will guide ferry passengers through the existing pedestrian walkway to the shuttle stop. Regarding duplication of existing service, the Broadway Shuttle will provide different service from AC Transit Line 72 in at least two important ways. First, the Broadway Shuttle will be free; the 72 costs $4 roundtrip. This amounts to a weekly savings of $20 for commuters. Second, the 72 turns west on 20th. The Broadway Shuttle will continue north on Broadway to Grand Ave, and will also travel on Webster to serve the office buildings in the Lake Merritt Financial District. Regarding the intent of DTO’s orignal post, several interesting points have been made about how ferry service can be improved. V –
The Broadway Shuttle will stop at the intersection of Embarcadero & Broadway, an easy and very short walk from the ferry station at Clay Street. A wayfinding sign(s) will guide ferry passengers through the existing pedestrian walkway to the shuttle stop.

Regarding duplication of existing service, the Broadway Shuttle will provide different service from AC Transit Line 72 in at least two important ways. First, the Broadway Shuttle will be free; the 72 costs $4 roundtrip. This amounts to a weekly savings of $20 for commuters. Second, the 72 turns west on 20th. The Broadway Shuttle will continue north on Broadway to Grand Ave, and will also travel on Webster to serve the office buildings in the Lake Merritt Financial District.

Regarding the intent of DTO’s orignal post, several interesting points have been made about how ferry service can be improved.

]]> By: dto510 http://futureoaklandblog.com/2009/12/ferry-failing-nobody-notices/#comment-1099 dto510 Tue, 29 Dec 2009 18:55:02 +0000 http://futureoaklandblog.com/?p=567#comment-1099 Of course BART is subsidized - all transportation is, including cars. But the ferry's subsidy is outrageously high, and what is Oakland getting for its million dollars a year? Not enough to justify that much money. The fact that the little-used ferry is cited as an offset to parking demand shows how little policymakers know about the ferry - that is the point of this post. People seem to think that it's used, but the fact is that it's not, and can't be used very substantially without major changes. If the ferry depends on free parking, it's not very environmentally-friendly either, and inherently limited by the demands of car storage as well as the size of the ferries themselves (340 - 388 passengers). Of course BART is subsidized – all transportation is, including cars. But the ferry’s subsidy is outrageously high, and what is Oakland getting for its million dollars a year? Not enough to justify that much money. The fact that the little-used ferry is cited as an offset to parking demand shows how little policymakers know about the ferry – that is the point of this post. People seem to think that it’s used, but the fact is that it’s not, and can’t be used very substantially without major changes. If the ferry depends on free parking, it’s not very environmentally-friendly either, and inherently limited by the demands of car storage as well as the size of the ferries themselves (340 – 388 passengers).

]]> By: dto510 http://futureoaklandblog.com/2009/12/ferry-failing-nobody-notices/#comment-1097 dto510 Tue, 29 Dec 2009 17:52:04 +0000 http://futureoaklandblog.com/?p=567#comment-1097 The ferry doesn't really go from Alameda to Oakland, it goes from Alameda and Oakland to SF. In one direction, you'd have to go to SF in the middle. My understanding is that the Alameda Point development is planning a BRT system, not a new ferry. That seems like a better bet. If the ferry depends on free parking, that's not so great. And free parking, of course, isn't free - who is paying for the land? Is the ferry paying Oakland parking tax? WETA can improve some of the more user-unfriendly elements of the ferry, and, at a minimum, should do so immediately if they expect Oakland to continue subsidizing the ferry. But it's going to be hard to prove that the ferry is the best use of a yearly million-dollar investment. The ferry doesn’t really go from Alameda to Oakland, it goes from Alameda and Oakland to SF. In one direction, you’d have to go to SF in the middle. My understanding is that the Alameda Point development is planning a BRT system, not a new ferry. That seems like a better bet. If the ferry depends on free parking, that’s not so great. And free parking, of course, isn’t free – who is paying for the land? Is the ferry paying Oakland parking tax?

WETA can improve some of the more user-unfriendly elements of the ferry, and, at a minimum, should do so immediately if they expect Oakland to continue subsidizing the ferry. But it’s going to be hard to prove that the ferry is the best use of a yearly million-dollar investment.

]]> By: Moschops http://futureoaklandblog.com/2009/12/ferry-failing-nobody-notices/#comment-1096 Moschops Tue, 29 Dec 2009 06:31:45 +0000 http://futureoaklandblog.com/?p=567#comment-1096 This is an updated version of my comment to the SFGate blog post. I'll have to disagree with VSmoothe in that I ride the ferry every couple of weeks to SF and almost everything about the experience is so much better than BART. Those that ride the ferry love it and would be very sad if it was discontinued - just ask anyone who takes the ferry to Bay Farm Island or from Alameda to Oakland. But for us 510 crowd it has the huge disadvantage that it takes 30 minutes from departure and when you add an extra 10 minutes to make sure you're on board before they leave, well that's just a lot of extra time out of your day each way vs. BART. Price wise when you include the free 12-hour parking at Washington St which would cost $5 per day at West Oakland it is actually either the same or cheaper compared to BART depending on how many tickets you buy at a time ($90 for 20 tickets, further discount for more). I think if the ferry folks actually advertised and highlighted the free parking they would get many more riders. And if they could run an extra ferry that stopped at Alameda first you might be able to provide a much faster route to SF that was more competitive with BART (at least for those that don't need to jump on Muni or BART at the other end). The ferry is actually heavily utilized during commute hours by riders from Alameda - they pretty much fill up the ferry downstairs and most of the upstairs but you can still always find a seat, get some coffee, eat a snack or chill (often literally) outside if you want. SO much nicer than the BART experience where you are more likely to be sniffing someones armpit the whole way unless you leave after 9:30a. Although I'm spending 40 minutes on the ferry I can actually bust out my laptop and usually finish off all my morning email before arriving to SF. Something you can only do on BART if you are getting on way south of downtown (and you probably wont have a wireless signal for most of the journey anyway). Also be aware that the ferry is always cited as a offset for parking demand in environmental impact studies. Its existence saves developers from providing a significant amount of extra parking spaces per year and that is real value to developers such as JLS Partners who invest in downtown development. Over in Alameda it is even more important because it significantly reduces the number of cars going through the tube towards BART and saves them investing in extra car infrastructure. So the reason I don't ride the ferry every day? Its that extra 30 minutes travel time vs. BART - to get to work by 9am on BART I can leave my front door at 8:30am, for the ferry I have to leave at least 40 minutes earlier, otherwise I'll miss the ferry and end up turning up at work at 10am which is unfortunately unacceptable for my schedule. If there was a slightly later or faster ferry it would be a lot different. Even though I don't drive I would be willing to pay the extra to get the ferry. PS. Isn't BART subsidized too? Car owners may bitch about that as well but when the bridge is out everyone realizes just how important BART is, and when BART is not available everyone driving realizes just how many cars it is keeping off the road! This is an updated version of my comment to the SFGate blog post.

I’ll have to disagree with VSmoothe in that I ride the ferry every couple of weeks to SF and almost everything about the experience is so much better than BART. Those that ride the ferry love it and would be very sad if it was discontinued – just ask anyone who takes the ferry to Bay Farm Island or from Alameda to Oakland. But for us 510 crowd it has the huge disadvantage that it takes 30 minutes from departure and when you add an extra 10 minutes to make sure you’re on board before they leave, well that’s just a lot of extra time out of your day each way vs. BART. Price wise when you include the free 12-hour parking at Washington St which would cost $5 per day at West Oakland it is actually either the same or cheaper compared to BART depending on how many tickets you buy at a time ($90 for 20 tickets, further discount for more). I think if the ferry folks actually advertised and highlighted the free parking they would get many more riders. And if they could run an extra ferry that stopped at Alameda first you might be able to provide a much faster route to SF that was more competitive with BART (at least for those that don’t need to jump on Muni or BART at the other end).

The ferry is actually heavily utilized during commute hours by riders from Alameda – they pretty much fill up the ferry downstairs and most of the upstairs but you can still always find a seat, get some coffee, eat a snack or chill (often literally) outside if you want. SO much nicer than the BART experience where you are more likely to be sniffing someones armpit the whole way unless you leave after 9:30a. Although I’m spending 40 minutes on the ferry I can actually bust out my laptop and usually finish off all my morning email before arriving to SF. Something you can only do on BART if you are getting on way south of downtown (and you probably wont have a wireless signal for most of the journey anyway).

Also be aware that the ferry is always cited as a offset for parking demand in environmental impact studies. Its existence saves developers from providing a significant amount of extra parking spaces per year and that is real value to developers such as JLS Partners who invest in downtown development. Over in Alameda it is even more important because it significantly reduces the number of cars going through the tube towards BART and saves them investing in extra car infrastructure.

So the reason I don’t ride the ferry every day? Its that extra 30 minutes travel time vs. BART – to get to work by 9am on BART I can leave my front door at 8:30am, for the ferry I have to leave at least 40 minutes earlier, otherwise I’ll miss the ferry and end up turning up at work at 10am which is unfortunately unacceptable for my schedule. If there was a slightly later or faster ferry it would be a lot different. Even though I don’t drive I would be willing to pay the extra to get the ferry.

PS. Isn’t BART subsidized too? Car owners may bitch about that as well but when the bridge is out everyone realizes just how important BART is, and when BART is not available everyone driving realizes just how many cars it is keeping off the road!

]]> By: jayc http://futureoaklandblog.com/2009/12/ferry-failing-nobody-notices/#comment-1095 jayc Tue, 29 Dec 2009 04:45:20 +0000 http://futureoaklandblog.com/?p=567#comment-1095 As a frequent sightseer in JLS, there is no indications of any suitable ferry service. Typical city/port admin. Qualify for various subsideis but do NOTHING in support of real Oaklanders who might take a ferry to SF. HA As a frequent sightseer in JLS, there is no indications of any suitable ferry service. Typical city/port admin. Qualify for various subsideis but do NOTHING in support of real Oaklanders who might take a ferry to SF. HA

]]> By: jayc http://futureoaklandblog.com/2009/12/ferry-failing-nobody-notices/#comment-1094 jayc Tue, 29 Dec 2009 04:41:59 +0000 http://futureoaklandblog.com/?p=567#comment-1094 FAIL FAIL

]]> By: Jenn http://futureoaklandblog.com/2009/12/ferry-failing-nobody-notices/#comment-1093 Jenn Tue, 29 Dec 2009 01:59:22 +0000 http://futureoaklandblog.com/?p=567#comment-1093 People don't realize there is free parking for the ferry, and if you buy a book of tickets it's not as expensive as it first appears. I do think it is not very user friendly, e.g. the waiting line is in the elements, there is no explanation of how/where to purchase tickets, etc. A bit of education and marketing would go a really long way. Also, isn't the fact that the ferry goes from Alameda to Oakland one of the big selling features SunCal is using to pitch is Alameda Point projects? If there is no ferry, that project is even more unattractive when combined with the revenue Alameda will lose. People don’t realize there is free parking for the ferry, and if you buy a book of tickets it’s not as expensive as it first appears. I do think it is not very user friendly, e.g. the waiting line is in the elements, there is no explanation of how/where to purchase tickets, etc. A bit of education and marketing would go a really long way.

Also, isn’t the fact that the ferry goes from Alameda to Oakland one of the big selling features SunCal is using to pitch is Alameda Point projects? If there is no ferry, that project is even more unattractive when combined with the revenue Alameda will lose.

]]> By: Daniel http://futureoaklandblog.com/2009/12/ferry-failing-nobody-notices/#comment-1092 Daniel Mon, 28 Dec 2009 21:56:08 +0000 http://futureoaklandblog.com/?p=567#comment-1092 Ferries as real transit can only work under special circumstances where there is either significant density and/or lack of a faster alternative to support frequent service--Treasure Island, Alameda Point, Redwood City Salt Works, and Larkspur all come to mind. The JLS ferry is not real transit; it costs double that of BART and the O for considerably less service and no real time savings. What it all comes down to is just a bad attempt by JLS to grab a few tourists from San Francisco, when the reality is that there's no way tourists would choose JLS over Sausalito or Tiburon for a ferry getaway. Ferries as real transit can only work under special circumstances where there is either significant density and/or lack of a faster alternative to support frequent service–Treasure Island, Alameda Point, Redwood City Salt Works, and Larkspur all come to mind. The JLS ferry is not real transit; it costs double that of BART and the O for considerably less service and no real time savings. What it all comes down to is just a bad attempt by JLS to grab a few tourists from San Francisco, when the reality is that there’s no way tourists would choose JLS over Sausalito or Tiburon for a ferry getaway.

]]> By: V Smoothe http://futureoaklandblog.com/2009/12/ferry-failing-nobody-notices/#comment-1091 V Smoothe Sun, 27 Dec 2009 23:16:34 +0000 http://futureoaklandblog.com/?p=567#comment-1091 Farebox recovery ratio is actually an extremely poor way to measure transit subsidy and efficiency. It arbitrarily favors certain modes over others by failing to consider capital costs. So, for example, while BART, a capital intensive system, has a higher farebox recovery ratio than, say, AC Transit, once you take capital costs into account, the per trip public subsidy is roughly triple that of AC Transit. Caltrain's is double BART's. And the ferry is higher than any of them. All this data is readily available in MTC documents and the National Transit Database. I completely fail to see how the Broadway shuttle will do anything to help the ferry. It <i>doesn't even go to the ferry</i>, it simply replicates an existing bus route that stops nearby and already runs as frequently as the shuttle is planned to. Farebox recovery ratio is actually an extremely poor way to measure transit subsidy and efficiency. It arbitrarily favors certain modes over others by failing to consider capital costs. So, for example, while BART, a capital intensive system, has a higher farebox recovery ratio than, say, AC Transit, once you take capital costs into account, the per trip public subsidy is roughly triple that of AC Transit. Caltrain’s is double BART’s. And the ferry is higher than any of them. All this data is readily available in MTC documents and the National Transit Database.

I completely fail to see how the Broadway shuttle will do anything to help the ferry. It doesn’t even go to the ferry, it simply replicates an existing bus route that stops nearby and already runs as frequently as the shuttle is planned to.

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